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Recovery and to return to work When is it acceptable to return to work

#1 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 01:35 PM

Fitness to return to work is in two parts, safety and capacity to generate preinjury earnings.
This does not mean recreating the job specification and continuing on light duties but rather full restoration.
Of the person continues to only managing light duties but generate full earnings they remain on ACC even though there might be 100% abatement of earnings. The situation may continue for the rest of a person's life if they are so lucky to keep their job but if a person finds themselves having to apply for a new job then a new employer might not see the person who has been injured in the same light as they were preinjury.

Returning to The preinjury work involves medical clearance so as to provide protection and safety necessary to generate the preinjury earnings.

It is the doctor that determines whether or not it is safe for the individual to carry out the particular work task activities they engaged in prior to being injured.
It is for the employer to provide the list of work task activities being carried out for the purposes of generating earnings.


Preinjury work task activities must never be confused with the notion of an occupation title such as plasterer.. The notion of an occupation title only becomes relevant if the person does not recover and cannot return to their preinjury work to generate the same earnings as they did preinjury. So in other words we must completely set aside any notion of "occupational title" as that is not the focus of the rehabilitation but rather the focuses totally and entirely medical capacity to safely perform the tasks they generated earnings before being injured. So then the rehabilitation as for the purposes of regaining the same capacity to generate earnings.

Medical rehabilitation therefore is regaining the capacity to earn carrying out the same earning task activities rather than to maintain a work title or name of occupation.
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#2 User is offline   anonymousey 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 05:34 PM

The following information is copied because you link earnings specifically to the IP Occupation and other factors ...so this resource may help show how ACC approach some of these matters from the getgo ie when they set levy charges etc


ACC Link

Would ACC consider basing cover on average self-employed earnings across an occupation or industry for newly self-employed people?
No, cover is based on individual circumstances. Basing cover across an occupation or industry would be unlikely to accurately reflect the newly self employed person’s earnings. This may also affect compensation if they have an accident in their first year of self employment.


My clients are shareholders and managers of a business entity and their staff are in a different occupational group. Why do they all have the same occupational code for their ACC levy?

Each business entity must be classified under a single classification unit that most accurately describes what the business entity does. Therefore, this classification is defined at a business entity level and not an individual employee level. There are exceptions where multiple classification units are required, contact us on 0800 222 991 or visit www.businessdescription.co.nz for more information.

My client receives earnings from more than one income source. Do I need to inform you every year and send in a Summary of Earnings?
Yes, we need to confirm all earnings, particularly if earnings are received from multiple income sources. We encourage you to submit a Summary of Earnings, so that we can determine the correct levels of cover, levies and adjustments for your clients



So returning to your posting above, in an effort to assist claimants by enhancing their comprehension and personal autonomy ... IMHO it is necessary for each claimant to consider some of these additional obligations and background circumstances etc etc

Once every claimant has a good grasp of their circumstances and responsibilities PRE-INJURY then hopefully this should eliminate some of the confusion later down the line post-injury perhaps?

For example, as a claimant, I know that I would also include attention to the veracity of my Curriculum Vitae as well Alan. Thankfully educational institutions provide students with transcripts &or fraud issues are becoming more visible too IMHO. This will directly correlate to the ANZSCO documents...

However as you have separated issues, from your descriptions or terms cited above, then it seems this *doctor* whoever this may be will be the person who is funded to undertake these additional assessments and production of reports &or examine CVs and various other tasks perhaps?

FYI there are numerous international cases where medical neglect &or malpractice have been successfully achieved when some doctors have returned unsafe patients into the community &or back to work etc


ps I take it that we can agree that General Practitioners will NOT have the necessary resources or responsibilities for making any decisions concerning medical rehabilitation

pps please remember that you have made a fundamental error with presentation of your other thread

ie SKILL LEVEL 1 = Higher Professional Qualifications & Expertise [NZQA 7+]

ie SKILL LEVEL 4-5 = Secondary/College School graduates and Polytechnic/Night School certificates [NZQA 1-5 usually]


edited to remove the simple invisible memory strategy ie alans statements requoted in full but at smaller font to stop waste of data resources

This post has been edited by anonymousey: 11 June 2017 - 10:39 PM

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#3 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 05:49 PM

You cannot participate in a conversation if you blank out the other person's viewpoint.
You cannot participate in an intellectual discussion by making a statement of fact followed by using the word "perhaps" followed by a "?" as this technique is solely for the purposes of being persuasive rather than Engaging in intellectual discourse to gain clarity for those who need it.

The legislation places the medical profession as the sole determinator of whether or not it is safe for a person to undertake certain tasks of work for purposes of their earning. The legislation also instructs the ACC to submit themselves to this independent qualified and experienced information for purposes of administering the act as the ACC have no authority to interpret information.

These skill level describes levels 1 - 5 which does not have a direct bearing on level of education but rather takes into account quite a number of different factors. Sadly social pressure has caused a large number of people to feel that their level of self-esteem is directly proportional to their level of education. However such people fail to realise that that is not the way employers view the skills bank that is necessary to operate a productive business to enable the business to generate income in order to pay earnings for the utilisation of those skills they have drawn upon from their staff. Obviously a highly educated person can have absolutely zero skills with the result that they are totally unemployable for the purposes of earning while someone with no education can have unique skills of the highest order.
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#4 User is offline   doppelganger 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:25 PM

View PostAlan Thomas, on 11 June 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Fitness to return to work is in two parts, safety and capacity to generate preinjury earnings.
This does not mean recreating the job specification and continuing on light duties but rather full restoration.



Please explain why some one can not be rehabilitated into another employment when if specifically states another occupation were earning to ones maximum capacity is the goal.

Explain what happen when one has a permanent incapacity preventing from completing ones task in there preinjury employment?

Explain why you set up companies if it was not to earn to your maximum capacity.
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#5 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:44 PM

View Postdoppelganger, on 11 June 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

Please explain why some one can not be rehabilitated into another employment when if specifically states another occupation were earning to ones maximum capacity is the goal.

Explain what happen when one has a permanent incapacity preventing from completing ones task in there preinjury employment?

Explain why you set up companies if it was not to earn to your maximum capacity.


At this stage we are talking about a person medically recovering to the preinjury condition. This is not about vocational rehabilitation into a new occupation.
Legislation does not permit the ACC to spend any funds on vocational rehabilitation when a person is expected to medically recover.
There exists a hierarchy of procedure in the legislation and step one is medical rehabilitation only.
In the event that medical rehabilitation proves not to be possible, after the treatment provider has pronounced that to be the fact it is only then that the ACC may begin vocational rehabilitation plan to a new occupation.
If you want to talk about me your need to do that on the thread dedicated to matters concerning my own situation.

With regards to people who find themselves injured and unable to generate earnings from their own efforts they are of course at liberty to invest in anything they like. That isn't any of ACCs business. For example a person might invest in their spouses company or even start a new company of their own and be a 100% shareholder but simply in the capacity as the director delegate every single duty of the director to the manager who is also employed. It is not unusual for people to anticipate that they will recover one day and having lost their company because of injuries get another company started and up and running so when they do recover medically that they step seamlessly from being injured and incapacitated to certified to be fit for work and start the next day in their own company. This is no different from having a job or jacked up and waiting for the day when the person is no longer incapacitated. People who are sufficiently intelligent and well organised do this type of thing all the time and it is not unusual at all.
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#6 User is offline   anonymousey 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 08:13 PM

Alan Thomas, stated,

"You cannot participate in a conversation if you blank out the other person's viewpoint. "


FGS Alan please grow up and try to remember the palaver you write is remaining untouched in your first opening posting :rolleyes:

I know it may not keep you happy ... but yup there are many many times when your particular viewpoint can offend me ... plus with respect to this particular whinge your entire posting was irrelevant to my chosen response above & selected reply structure....

Simply I am not regurgitating your meaningless rhetoric because it unnecessary to my reply and I have told you this many many times before Alan.

Clearly your personal attacks against me is because you are unable to comprehend what ACC have written on their websites too :rolleyes:


Certainly I know that I can completely disregard every single word or your palaver and never ever requote it Alan so this then ensures your whinge is revealed for the petty harassment that it is ... but nah ...as you edit erratically and codebots delete invisibly in here ... yep I will still use any alternative acceptable methods utilised by many peeps who are familiar with normal forum etiquette &or strategies recommended by many webmasters and authorities for managing particular situations Alan :rolleyes:

ie I have selected a simple method for countering the various problems from your never-ending abuse and slamming ie invisible record for me to assist with recall & auditing purposes ...

Because you are either trolling or simply demonstrating hypersensitivity and ignorance Alan ...please remember that most adults will have already read your viewpoint before they read my response :angry:



Lastly because you are harassing me with nonsense and avoiding discussion of the topics with these toxic word spindoctoring and mindgames ... I cant be bothered responding to your other remaining nonsense in this thread tonight

edited to remove the simple invisible memory strategy ie alans statements requoted in full but at smaller font to stop waste of data resources

This post has been edited by anonymousey: 11 June 2017 - 10:40 PM

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#7 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 09:47 PM


anonymousey


I have reported your above post

Off topic.
tampering with my post and not following the forum reply protocol
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#8 User is offline   anonymousey 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 10:15 PM

Alan Thomas

How on earth have I tampered with your post?

I have not used your statements within my reply to you because they are irrelevant or extraneous to my response

I have not CORRUPTED your statements under your authorship and audit tags

There are numerous choices for forum reply protocol Alan

In fact there are numerous choices for forum reply preferences too!!

Likewise there are many codes available to editing functions & features Alan!!

I am getting utterly sick of this nonsense and harassment Alan :angry:

I absolutely am disgusted at this ridicoulous insistence that irrelevant rhetoric is regurgitated in public view Alan

If I do need to highlight any exact sentences from you I will use simpler alternative methods such as blue colour and indentations with speech marks :angry:

I am also no longer surprised at the ignorance which accompanies your relentless wasting of money that belongs to other forum members by pandering to such whims

Is it the fact that I keep an invisible copy for auditing & memory purposes angers you because then you can NOT deny your statements and editing and perverting the forum discussions when you can not get your own palaver parroted back to you perhaps?

As of now I am NO LONGER requoting any of your comments Alan :angry:

Happy??

Yup now you will have to guess the relevance of my comments to other members concerning ACC issues &or NZLII case material as it may apply


FYI to other members I was making commentary but keeping a small invisible copy of any relevant issues to my responses in case it was deleted by robots!! This is also a userfriendly method to help the owners and administrators and forensic investigators because audit codes were available as required.

Due to Alans abuse these insignificant empty boxes or what would be a few centrimetres of scrolling bandwidth to keep data charges minimised have now stopped. I take no responsibility for the post-corruption and perversion of material that is being encouraged by this deliberate type of abuse from Alan Thomas :angry:

I have downloaded this thread in its original upload for the authorities and also now reported your abuse Alan

This post has been edited by anonymousey: 11 June 2017 - 10:16 PM

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#9 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 10:33 PM

anonymousey

Your above post has been reported for being off topic.

Maybe you should PM me re your problems
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#10 User is offline   anonymousey 

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 10:54 PM

Alan Thomas

The first paragraph of posting # 251131 has been reported for being abusive. I have asked that this posting be moderated.

The entirety of posting # 251141 has been reported for being abusive and offtopic and clearly designed to use and abuse the forum codebots in another attempt to censor, and intimidate members who hold a different POV. Your attempts to humiliate are wasted on me Alan. The audit link has been provided so that moderation to remove your entire pointless comment from public view is easily processed.

The entirety of posting # 251143 has also been reported for being abusive and offtopic! Your efforts to censor alternative points of view on the thread topic due to your introduction of irrelevancies and trying to behave as an autocratic self appointed censor are also a waste of forum bandwidth Alan. The audit link has been provided so that moderation to remove your entire pointless comment from public view is easily processed.




FYI I will also NEVER have any PERSONAL MESSAGES to you because you are a dangerous badguy that I have seen to use and abuse this feature of this forum.

NB I have also reported some of your abusive postings in the other threads which have arisen in the past few days Alan :angry:
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#11 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 06:40 PM

View Postdoppelganger, on 11 June 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

Please explain why some one can not be rehabilitated into another employment when if specifically states another occupation were earning to ones maximum capacity is the goal.

Explain what happen when one has a permanent incapacity preventing from completing ones task in there preinjury employment?

Explain why you set up companies if it was not to earn to your maximum capacity.


At this stage we are talking about a person medically recovering to the preinjury condition. This is not about vocational rehabilitation into a new occupation.
Legislation does not permit the ACC to spend any funds on vocational rehabilitation when a person is expected to medically recover.
There exists a hierarchy of procedure in the legislation and step one is medical rehabilitation only.
In the event that medical rehabilitation proves not to be possible, after the treatment provider has pronounced that to be the fact it is only then that the ACC may begin vocational rehabilitation plan to a new occupation.
If you want to talk about me your need to do that on the thread dedicated to matters concerning my own situation.

With regards to people who find themselves injured and unable to generate earnings from their own efforts they are of course at liberty to invest in anything they like. That isn't any of ACCs business. For example a person might invest in their spouses company or even start a new company of their own and be a 100% shareholder but simply in the capacity as the director delegate every single duty of the director to the manager who is also employed. It is not unusual for people to anticipate that they will recover one day and having lost their company because of injuries get another company started and up and running so when they do recover medically that they step seamlessly from being injured and incapacitated to certified to be fit for work and start the next day in their own company. This is no different from having a job or jacked up and waiting for the day when the person is no longer incapacitated. People who are sufficiently intelligent and well organised do this type of thing all the time and it is not unusual at all.
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#12 User is offline   MINI 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:40 PM

View PostAlan Thomas, on 11 June 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

At this stage we are talking about a person medically recovering to the preinjury condition. This is not about vocational rehabilitation into a new occupation.
Legislation does not permit the ACC to spend any funds on vocational rehabilitation when a person is expected to medically recover.
There exists a hierarchy of procedure in the legislation and step one is medical rehabilitation only.
In the event that medical rehabilitation proves not to be possible, after the treatment provider has pronounced that to be the fact it is only then that the ACC may begin vocational rehabilitation plan to a new occupation.
If you want to talk about me your need to do that on the thread dedicated to matters concerning my own situation.

With regards to people who find themselves injured and unable to generate earnings from their own efforts they are of course at liberty to invest in anything they like. That isn't any of ACCs business. For example a person might invest in their spouses company or even start a new company of their own and be a 100% shareholder but simply in the capacity as the director delegate every single duty of the director to the manager who is also employed. It is not unusual for people to anticipate that they will recover one day and having lost their company because of injuries get another company started and up and running so when they do recover medically that they step seamlessly from being injured and incapacitated to certified to be fit for work and start the next day in their own company. This is no different from having a job or jacked up and waiting for the day when the person is no longer incapacitated. People who are sufficiently intelligent and well organised do this type of thing all the time and it is not unusual at all.


Thomas

What you are indeed saying is that if your efforts to build another company and it takes six months for one to recover such as to be self employed in that company, that you can go from nil income to over $500 per week or more on income at one step, without having touched any of the money which are efforts from oneself without telling WINZ, ACC,or any other govt entities of that six months income from previous effort no matter what it is used for?

Bulls dust.

Every trading company, which would include the first six months would have to registered with the IRD. If it is found to be trading in any time of the incorporation the owner if over 50% in charge of the company would be charged with fraud. Not much different with the ACC who get awfully upset at the type of thinking you have above written as factual. As you have found out. WINZ are same they cannot afford to be seen to be paying sickness benefit for someone who is working building up his own company to pay him a living wage.

on the other hand if a person was to do it the correct way and have his/her bookkeeping include starting up expenses, purchase of equipment etc and payment of any other expenses. if those other expenses include anything to do with the business owners personal expenses, this is considered, earnings or in a company situation drawings. All the same no matter what you call them they are monies derived from the effort of building that company to the position that as you say you can step from benefit onto a living wage. And become independent of any handouts from govt entities.

How anyone can do that from no other start up income than WINZ benefit is beyond me. If they have no income themselves for start up income I truly believe they would have to borrow or ask for a grant, which would mean that the entity paying them income for the next six months would surely learn about a start up grant that is usually govt type of loan, or trust in company and owner or from other places that surely would not be a bank unless the person wanting it had a house or some sort of collateral for what would be called high risk, if the owner has not got their on savings for such a venture.

Yes there are many out there who try it on but with three or four different govt entities they do get caught eventually, I can vouch for that having found a few of them myself, in my working life. Only certain try to cut corners and fall flat on their faces in bankruptcy and living their life trying to keep from being spotted or dobbed.

My own son had to have my house as security before he could do his self employed company himself. Now under 50, he grooves along with income from other ventures to pay his way in life and a bit of work on the side. Don't worry Thomas that was before I left work. I gave three years to have the conditions withdrawn from my house, He did it in 1&1/2. Bought up with integrity and honesty. Another has just sold his business after 17 years and is trying a bit of contracting himself out, with all of his skills, having a breather from being a boss, but revenue still comes in if he works or not. So both set up fine. Mum doesn't have to worry about any of them, they are all self suffcient. So is mum so they also have any worries.

Showing you don't have to be super rich to make a life for yourself that you can enjoy most of the time.

Mini
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#13 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:45 PM

Mini this thread is about injured people returning to the work that they used to do before they are injured. (Recovery and return to work)

You seem to have addressed some of the elements but by and large you seem to be still in the attack mode and get sidetracked. Please try to be more self moderating in accordance with the philosophies of the site.

However I will address the issues you have raised but if you want to address things that are related specifically to myself please take your thoughts to the poster dealing with myself. Thank you
Would you have written is in red and I will reply in blue.

Thomas

What you are indeed saying is that if your efforts to build another company and it takes six months for one to recover such as to be self employed in that company, that you can go from nil income to over $500 per week or more on income at one step, without having touched any of the money which are efforts from oneself without telling WINZ, ACC,or any other govt entities of that six months income from previous effort no matter what it is used for?

Building another company is only relevant if a claimant was already earning by way of working for the company and that company closed. Otherwise it would be simply a case of the company continuing on without the benefits of the injured person on ACC or that the injured person would be working in their own company part-time until they fully recovered, such as was the case with myself.

There is no set amount of time already set profile for people starting a company after being injured as the circumstances are entirely different with each individual.. However just starting up a company can take mere minutes. You simply go online to the companies office and register a company and then you are a company along with being a shareholder and director. This takes about 10 or 15 minutes and only costs a few dollars. Of course owning a company,, after spending just a few minutes in the process of setting up and owning a company is entirely and totally irrelevant to both ACC and WINZ as the existence of such a company and the fact that a claimant is now a director of that company means absolutely nothing to these government agencies. There are many reasons why companies are set up such as quite a few of my own was set up purely and simply to protect intellectual property with absolutely no intention of them functioning in a working and income generating capacity until something else were to happen such as recovery from injuries. So the conclusion is that anybody on the ACC or WINZ need not fear setting up a company and perhaps get themselves ready for the day when they will recover from their injuries and be pronounced by the medical professionals, fit for work..




Bulls dust.
I don't know why you would say that? What are you referring to? Please explain


Every trading company, which would include the first six months would have to registered with the IRD. If it is found to be trading in any time of the incorporation the owner if over 50% in charge of the company would be charged with fraud. Not much different with the ACC who get awfully upset at the type of thinking you have above written as factual. As you have found out. WINZ are same they cannot afford to be seen to be paying sickness benefit for someone who is working building up his own company to pay him a living wage.
The IRD rules are entirely different to what you have stated. It is quite acceptable to leave everything without doing a single thing for about 18 months. it is no problem whatsoever. However the eye of the usually like to keep their book straight so at the prescribed point in time a return must be filed to both the companies office and the IRD. If there has been no activity then simply a nil return would be filed. If there is an intention to generate earnings up to or over the level prescribed for the purposes of GST then it would be necessary to register for GST and acquire a GST number. Generally in the set up phase there will be a lot of expenses of which GST can be claimed back together with other write-off benefits and deductions that maybe put forward and claimed against profits once profits do occur. If anyone is unfamiliar with these basics then it would be advisable to contact the IRD website and download the various advice available. In more recent times the IRD is extremely helpful which is quite different to the historical times when it's used to sneak up on people, attack them with the result that there would be many suicides and suchlike.

With regards to ACC and WINZ I once again stressed that they have absolutely no need to know what is going on prior to any efforts may to work for the purposes of generating earnings. The set up phase which only involves the various organisational aspects and directors duties to maintain the various duties required generally are of no interest to the ACC or WINZ and of course cannot in any way or form interfere with any entitlements will benefits received unless of course the work task activities in the opinion of these organisations could be better utilised in some other way.. This is why it is a polite thing to inform ACC and/or WINZ to give them the opportunity to address any concerns that they may have. Their own mind that the bureaucrats that work in these departments have little to no understanding of commercial matters and are as capable as others we see on the site imagining all manner of things and extrapolating fragments of their imagination into something else more can to what their pre-conceptions drive their thinking for the purposes of them exercising their so-called authority when of course rather than having authority they have a duty to serve which means to help the ACC or WINZ recover both physically and financially.

It is noteworthy to point out that mini, a former tax collector, perceives the above described driving force when she thinks that these agencies will imagine the world to be as she imagines that and operates on such language as "...cannot afford to be seen paying..." rather than adopt the stance as how how may we help?" In the way in which your thinking works. Clearly all school in days when the attacks against the taxpayer was so vicious that there were a large number of suicides from the attitudes of such people that abuse their positions of power well beyond the stipulations of legislation into an area where they wish to accept their perceived authority and control.



on the other hand if a person was to do it the correct way and have his/her bookkeeping include starting up expenses, purchase of equipment etc and payment of any other expenses. if those other expenses include anything to do with the business owners personal expenses, this is considered, earnings or in a company situation drawings. All the same no matter what you call them they are monies derived from the effort of building that company to the position that as you say you can step from benefit onto a living wage. And become independent of any handouts from govt entities.

When a comely first starts up there is practically no bookwork. One simply registered as a company, opens a bank account and they are ready to go apart from the actual functioning of work task activity for the company generate Profit from the company in the hope that there is enough profit after expenses in order to receive personal earnings. When this occurs of course ACC and WINZ are entitled to have an interest in the information regarding the personal earnings. of course they have no business having any knowledge of the running of the company.

During the start-up phase especially a company has a need to fund all manner of equipment, fund promotion, pay bonds for rent, furnishings, machinery and all other manner of one of costs that have absolutely no relationship to company income other than those costs are written off against income once it arrives. An owner of a business has no legal right to any funds from the company until all of the obligations to pay all the bills and repay loans and suchlike on time are properly funded.. Often there is no money left for the owner operator. Generally this can take one or two years before a company is running Sufficiently well enough to generate enough income to generate earnings.

So there three elements here, one of income, which is the property of the company, Company profit which is the property of the company and the other of earnings which is the property of the person doing the work. They have no relationship with each other in any way or form. Those receiving earnings or wages have no right to expect that figure to be a percentage of company income much less profit as there is no right of connection to such a figure. all too frequently we see state servants who rather stupidly and even naïvely think that there is a relationship between these three elements. That type of thinking is ridiculous. The reasons of course are quite complex which I will not go into at this stage as it is a subject on its own..

Mini refers to benefiting from a living wage. That concept only applies to social welfare and has no connection to the ACC legislated way of describing the ACC deal. If example a person was earning $5000 per week and had an injury they are not considered recovered until they have returned to that level of earnings. What the ACC actually pay in regards to ERC is not relevant to that concept. However as a person starts to generate earnings there is something called the abatement of earnings calculation which relates to the limited amount of earnings that the ACC legislation does insure. This means that there is a scaled rate whereby as the small amount ACC does payout on can be recovered by the earnings. This may vary from time to time particularly in a self-employed situation. For example a self-employed person might very well start of business by successfully but not continue and then go out of business which means that the ACC earnings compensation would need to be restarted as the individual self-funded rehabilitation had proven to be unsuccessful. This is particularly the situation when the ACC have declined to participate in this form of rehabilitation and has never at any stage determined capacity to return to the preinjury work or the nature of the occupation in regards to a new vocational rehabilitation as the new vocational rehabilitation requires the ACC to focus on a particular occupational title found in the Australia New Zealand Standard Classification of Occupations..



How anyone can do that from no other start up income than WINZ benefit is beyond me. If they have no income themselves for start up income I truly believe they would have to borrow or ask for a grant, which would mean that the entity paying them income for the next six months would surely learn about a start up grant that is usually govt type of loan, or trust in company and owner or from other places that surely would not be a bank unless the person wanting it had a house or some sort of collateral for what would be called high risk, if the owner has not got their on savings for such a venture.
Mini we are quite aware that you have no expertise when it comes to anything to do with setting up or operating a business and as such we do not expect you to have the capacity to form an opinion in which case I agree with you that it is beyond you. Most New Zealanders who start a business start off with pretty well nothing and about 20% of them succeed in the long term. About 2 out of 5 will fail with the first year and the other two will fail before the end of the 5th year. As we enter the information age we see more and more businesses starting up whereby little or no seed capital is necessary. However it is commonplace for budding entrepreneurs to borrow money of friends and family. In my own case because I had such an excellent reputation with the banking system I was able to obtain a substantial unsecured loan and a further facility by way of credit card of up to $8000.


Yes there are many out there who try it on but with three or four different govt entities they do get caught eventually, I can vouch for that having found a few of them myself, in my working life. Only certain try to cut corners and fall flat on their faces in bankruptcy and living their life trying to keep from being spotted or dobbed.
In the real world we do not need interference or involvement from government departments when taking all of the risks on our own shoulders to start off a business. If such entities are not willing to share in the risk they have no business having any involvement of any sort. However as mini has pointed out we do find many government agencies extrapolating their imagination well beyond reality and abusing their authority.. I've experienced this as have others such as the famous Mr Henderson in the IRD case and a host of others that I have had personal involvement in and assisted them unravel themselves from the clutches of such despicable people that are paid by us to serve us.

My own son had to have my house as security before he could do his self employed company himself. Now under 50, he grooves along with income from other ventures to pay his way in life and a bit of work on the side. Don't worry Thomas that was before I left work. I gave three years to have the conditions withdrawn from my house, He did it in 1&1/2. Bought up with integrity and honesty. Another has just sold his business after 17 years and is trying a bit of contracting himself out, with all of his skills, having a breather from being a boss, but revenue still comes in if he works or not. So both set up fine. Mum doesn't have to worry about any of them, they are all self suffcient. So is mum so they also have any worries.

Showing you don't have to be super rich to make a life for yourself that you can enjoy most of the time.



Mini
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#14 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 12:00 PM

Stage one of a return to useful economic work after an injury prevents the possibility of safely working to earn, varies from person to person. For example a concert pianist would need to have their little finger perfectly restored in order to return to their chosen profession whereby it might not be so important for a forklift driver who may even be able to work while still injured in that circumstance.

Of course stage 1 to return to work is medical rehabilitation. Medical rehabilitation proceeds all other forms of rehabilitation such as vocational rehabilitation to a new occupation. Legislation does not permit the ACC to have access to levy payers funds to re-educate someone when there exists a medical potential to return to the former occupation. The ACC don't get to choose whether or not to fund that medical treatment when such treatment is considered to be the normal "gold standard". This does not mean that extra ordinary treatment must be provided but rather the legitimately expected treatment that is common in the community. This does not mean the treatment that is limited to poor people on social welfare and suchlike as the legislation requires the target to be achieved which is a return to economic work.

Working does not mean the appearance of work such as going back to the former occupation on light duties with the expectation that the employer adapts the job for the individual as the person would remain incapacitated if such a scheme was hatched to avoid funding the necessary surgery to be fully restored.

It is only when all medical resources that are available and normal (the gold standard) have been exhausted before the ACC may make a decision to explore what someone might be able to do with the residual capacity in a similar fashion utilising their existing qualification, experience and skills. However this more often than not will result in a trading down of a claimant's prospects. As claimants did not accept the ACC legislation on the basis of not being able to sue and bearing the brunt of the impact of injury. This option is extremely limited for the ACC as a way forward for the claimant as the ACC legislation is one of rehabilitation for purposes of earning and not just merely to maintain an appearance of working. It would be morally repugnant to right-thinking New Zealanders for ACC To disregard the ACC legislation and make the injured party responsible for the effects of the injury while the person causing the injury has benefited from the legislation escaping without cost. This is not the nature of the no fault ACC scheme but rather simply adopts a don't know don't care approach from the ACC which is more likely than not criminally negligent as it deprives not only a person standing a life but hard cold cash in what they are not earning.

What does the concept of working mean in comparison with the concept of earning? Perhaps we can move forward with this discussion on this subject.
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