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Man fires gun in WINZ office - Two people dead, one injured.

#21 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:27 PM

My heartfelt condolences to the families of the two WINZ staff that were murdered and one that was seriously injured this morning in Ashburton.

May those two whose lives were taken, rest in peace.

Fran Van Helmond aka BLURB
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#22 User is offline   MINI 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:31 PM

View PostDavid Butler, on 01 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

My condolences and thinking of the families of the bereaved ones and the injured in such a sad time,and also those at the scene this morning witnessing such a shocking event

May they rest in peace.

David Butler.



Likewise

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#23 User is offline   Popeye 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:01 PM

My thoughts are with the families who have lost their loved ones this morning.
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#24 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:06 PM

Work and Income, ACC offices closed
Last updated 13:52 01/09/2014

Work and Income and ACC offices in Canterbury have been closed after today's fatal shooting.

The Ministry of Social Development Chief Executive Brendan Boyle said all Canterbury Work and Income (Winz) offices, including Timaru, would be closed until further notice following this morning's shooting at Winz in Ashburton.

"We are all shocked by the news of this morning's incident at the Ashburton Work and Income office. The police are handling this serious situation," Boyle said.

"What I can say is that we will be there for our colleagues to support them as they come to terms with what has happened.

ACC has also closed its office in Timaru today following the shooting.

ACC Senior Media Advisor Glenn Donovan said while ACC had a shared office arrangement with Work and Income Ashburton, none of their staff were present during today's incident.

"With the tragic news of WINZ Ashburton today we have taken the precaution of closing our Christchurch and Timaru offices, effectively immediately. Staff have been asked to go home,' Donovan said.'

"Our thoughts are with the WINZ staff at Ashburton and their families.

"The importance of safety and vigilance regarding our staff and customers remains paramount.''

- Stuff

http://www.stuff.co....-offices-closed
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#25 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:10 PM

Ashburton shooting suspect: John Tully
Last updated 13:23 01/09/2014


Police are looking for John Henry Tully, 48, after a shooting that killed two and injured a third at an Ashburton Work and Income Office this morning.

Canterbury District commander Superintendent Gary Knowles said police were searching for Tully, "a person of interest", predominantly near the Ashburton River.

Knowles said Tully, who also goes by the name Russell, was thought to be wearing camouflage clothing and may have a sawn-off shotgun. Anyone who saw him should phone 111, Knowles said.

People who lived near River Rd should stay indoors.

Police believed Tully left the Work and Income office on a bicycle. The bike had not been found.

Two people were fatally shot when a man went into the Winz office about 10am.

A third person who was shot had been transported to Christchurch Hospital. They were in a serious but stable condition.

Knowles did not think there was an ongoing risk to residents.

"I do think people are safe," Knowles said.

Ashburton District Mayor Angus McKay said he recognised the photo of Henry.

Some time ago, Henry received accommodation assistance from Presbyterian Support.

He was given four nights stay, when he was entitled to two, McKay said.

McKay said he felt "weak at the knees" when he heard about the shooting.

"Ashburton is not his kind of town," he said.

It was a close-knit town and "it hits home real hard", he said.

McKay did not know yet if he knew the victims.

A further police press conference will be held at 5pm.

John Tully is a person of interest sought by Police following the Ashburton shooting. Do not approach him. Call 111. pic.twitter.com/ZYvC2m55KF

— New Zealand Police (@nzpolice) September 1, 2014

SUSPECT 'CAME HOME TO DIE'

Tully recently became homeless and spoke to the Ashburton Guardian about his frustration at the lack of accommodation in the town.

After falling out with a flatmate he had no visible solution but to pitch a tent in the domain as a cry for help but was soon moved on by police.

The newspaper said he resorted to living in his car, but sold it make some money.

He reportedly moved back to Ashburton, the place where he was born and raised, following a career in the Australian mines.

The 48-year-old had said he had "come home to die" from an unidentified skin disease which caused boil-type lumps if left untreated and tightened the joints causing limited movement.

It had seen him placed him on a disability benefit and was likely to worsen, the Ashburton Guardian reported.

Tully was living rough while on the waiting list for a Housing New Zealand property.

However he did not anticipate anything soon and had turned to social agencies for support.

Presbyterian Support, through the emergency housing fund, had helped.

But after four nights he could no longer turn to them.

He had also kept in touch with HNZ, contacted Work and Income, mayor Angus McKay and Rangitata MP Jo Goodhew's office for assistance.

- Stuff

http://www.stuff.co....pect-John-Tully
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#26 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 02:18 PM

Bradford shooting tweet sparks backlash
SIOBHAN DOWNES
Last updated 13:18 01/09/2014

Former MP Sue Bradford has been slammed for allegedly using the Ashburton shooting, which left two dead and a third seriously injured, as an excuse for political "point scoring".

Bradford, who was most recently a member of Mana until she resigned in May, tweeted in the aftermath of the shooting: "Shocking news coming in of Work & Income shooting: awful, but a risk when office becomes front for brutal policies"

She was immediately criticised for the comment on Twitter.

One user said: "Don't you dare politicise this!"

Another said: "Not something to be made into petty point scoring Sue. Especially when we don't know the circumstances."

Shocking news coming in of Work & Income shooting: awful, but a risk when office becomes front for brutal policies http://t.co/kjjLCa8NLp

— Sue Bradford (@suebr) August 31, 2014

Bradford told Fairfax Media when she sent the tweet she was not aware anyone had been killed.

"It is a total tragedy, and [I have] every sympathy to those affected. It's just terrible."

But she stood by her comment. "The Work and Income office is the front line of the Government's welfare policies. People are very, very badly affected by what happens there everyday.

"This is in no way excusing what's happened. But I think it's unfortunate that governments sometimes don't understand or accept the risks that they put their staff under in implementing their policies."

- Stuff

http://www.stuff.co....sparks-backlash
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#27 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:04 PM

In no way am I excusing this man from committing cold-blooded preplanned murder. However all we can do now is look at the back story to make sure this type of thing does not escalate, which it certainly will if the problems behind the situation is not fixed.

So after working in a toxic mine a man suffers from skin ailments and can no longer work so returns to the comfort and security of his hometown with the thought that he is about to die of This condition only to find himself in this terrible whether living in an attempt with all of the social support mechanisms claiming they have done their job. I would say that for a very long time a large number of people would have been aware of his distress.

Having outlined the background this fellow has expressed his distress with a plan which involved dressing in camouflage clothing, with a balaclava and with a gun plans to kill then did kill.

Some say that Ashburton was not that type of town. Others will save New Zealand is not that type of country. Well the wake-up call is that it is. What we need to ask is what is making New Zealand the way it is and what can we do to engender mutual respect and compliance with the existing very good legislation New Zealand actually has on the law books. Already politicians such as Sue Bradford are attempting to use the situation for political gain. This is nothing to do with politics as all of the governments have established the laws and there is probably nothing very much wrong with the laws themselves. This problem is in relation to the implementation of those laws.

This country prides itself on a comprehensive accident compensation and social welfare system for all of its citizens yet it would also seem that the expectation is not being lived up to. Is this politicians promising more than what they intend to deliver? Is this the ACC and social welfare failing in their jobs comply with legislation. Whatever the problem there seems to be a gap between perceived legitimate expectation of not living in a tent on the Ashburton River in this weather while being in a chronically and potentially deadly medical circumstance.

The question is then was this man let down or did he expect too much?

In the public service dealing with this fellow that they treat him with the dignity that they may have treated others. For example what if he was not a middle-aged European male Who have worked all his life, with no dependents and Instead he was a gay whale protesting for land rights with 10 children to different partners? Would he have been treated differently. I find it difficult to imagine why someone who has clearly worked all their lives finds himself living in a tent in this weather.

It is tempting to believe that this fellow saw no respite for the rest of his shortened life and that it may have been for him far more preferable to be living in a heated cell with more food that he needs and the companionship of others.

Both the ACC and WINZ close their shared office as the first response. Obviously as there are going to be many more like them it is questionable as to whether or not they can safely open their office again as there will have been a cause-and-effect circumstance. Simply arrogantly increasing the level of security would not stop this type of thing at all. Someone as determined that this fellow will not be deterred while many other needy folk will find it increasingly more difficult to achieve the necessary communication to acquire the necessities of life.
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#28 User is offline   Marc 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:05 PM

Well, I had hoped it would not come to such an event, and while it may be a bit too early to jump to conclusions, I feel somewhat certain, that the recently introduced, draconian welfare reforms (brought in under the 'Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Act') from last year have at least something to do with this.

We cannot excuse violence, and certainly not killing innocent people, but I have personally had some "hellish" experiences with Work and Income (WINZ) and some of their at times not very sensitive, or even "over-ambitious", yes unreasonable staff. There are some staff that genuinely care, but others are more "career focused" and "target focused". I know many beneficiaries have had other horrible experiences, worse than what I ever experienced, where they were denied support while in dire need, where they were expected to do things, to also look for work that either does not exist, is very hard to get, or where they are actually not mentally, psychologically or physically fit to work at all.

This man (in this incident) apparently came back from years of hard work in Australia, working in the mines, he has a serious disease affecting skin and bodily function. He appears to have had a struggle behind him already, and with apparently few means returned to his hometown, where he hoped to find some peace to spend the rest of his days. Sadly it appears he was not prepared to handle the situation that presented itself to him. Systems have changed since he must have been away, perhaps he did not even depend on Work and Income before, so he had little idea what they may have expected of him, and what he would be confronted with. It seems he had no housing, was later forced to live in a tent in the domain in Ashburton, then was moved off by police, and moved his tent to near the Ashburton River. Living outdoors, and using the river for washing and so, will hardly have assisted his health. I presume he will have had, or certainly developed mental health issues, while trying to deal with immense difficulties, due to not coping, and while seeming to lose total control of his life. Can we blame people in such circumstances for cracking up and making dumb, insane, even such disastrous decisions, to act outside the law and then commit such an atrocity?

I leave this to others to judge. The news we hear do focus on a man hunt, on the killings, on the one other person injured in Christchurch Hospital, and only little light is shed on the man that allegedly committed the killings and injuries. Naturally most will rather relate to the innocent office workers, two women working for WINZ, and one other person, possibly also a WINZ staff member.

But reflecting on this, on the news that also shocked me earlier to day, I can only come to the conclusion, this is not just an "accident", an "event" that happened out of the blue, that was committed by an ordinary "evil minded" "criminal"! This is an act of anger and in desperation, where someone was driven by a hideous "welfare system" (which is very different now to what it once was in NZ), to the very extreme.

They have had disastrous cases in the UK, where previous welfare reforms, using also the controversial "findings" by one Professor Mansel Aywlard and his selected similarly minded colleagues, to dis-entitle many with so-called "common" illnesses and conditions from welfare support, and to pressure them to find work and other means to get by. Hundreds - if not well over a thousand - did in the UK die early, commit self-harm and even suicide, after ATOS and DWP found their "clients" "fit" for work, while they were not. They could not cope and did as just mentioned. Others resorted to crime and other desperate acts.

Under this present government here in New Zealand, they followed the same kinds of reforms they brought in in the UK, and Paula Bennett has over the last one to two years been going around "celebrating" the successes, of more getting off benefits, of more supposedly not needing benefit support, by supposedly finding some work. But there is a gap between the statistical figures of those moving into jobs, and those coming off benefits, that is not properly explained. Anecdotal evidence suggests some move in with others to save costs for accommodation, some may engage in casual work, some in criminal activity, prostitution, drug dealing, or move in with "partners", even where there may be abuse. But they rather do all that than go and beg an increasingly cold-hearted WINZ department for help, which is not as forthcoming as it once was.

While the government "saves" costs, the WINZ staff are expected to put on the pressure, to implement these reforms, of which most in the more securely employed middle class have little clues, as they never deal with WINZ. But as the affected WINZ clients face endless additional expectations, tests, ever ongoing re-assessments, medical reviews, assessments by "designated doctors" and so, and get less support when on breaking point, and only get told, to get a job, the WINZ staff risk facing the brunt of anger and resentment. If persons fail to meet "obligations", they get their benefits cut or stopped altogether.

That is what really seems to be behind all this, and Paula Bennett is likely to prove again later today, what a hypocrite she is. It will with her all be about the "poor innocent, hard working staff", and "one criminal" who did this, and NOTHING will be done to discuss what really may have been the cause for this act of anger by a seemingly very desperate, pressured and pushed man.

As I have written a lot about what is going on before, and hate to repeat myself, and as some others are onto it also, and are blogging and writing about this, I will only just once more point those that care a bit more about the situation at WINZ and MSD, to read stuff, which can be found here at various sources:

http://accforum.org/...-and-acc-compo/

http://accforum.org/...so-used-by-acc/

http://accforum.org/...ing-fact-study/

http://accforum.org/...ind-the-agenda/

http://disability-st...-March-2013.pdf

Another source on another forum or blogsite:
http://nzsocialjusti...o-social-model/


And this is what doctors are now "taught" to adhere to - by the AFOEM (Australasian Faculty of Occupational and Environmental Medicine) as part of the RACP (Royal Australasian College of Physicians):

http://www.racp.org....enefits-of-work

http://www.racp.org....mansel-aylward/

See the name AYLWARD and his "science" again, who Paula Bennett met with and consulted, same as her Ministry's "Health and Disability Panel", to form their welfare policy on! And remember also Dr David Bratt, the Principal Health Advisor for MSD, who is fully behind of what Aylward et al have been propagating for years now, disregarding any risks and harm their approaches may bring with them.


And here are links to stuff.co and 'The Press', with the sad news stories of today:
http://www.stuff.co....Income-shooting

Criticism about Sue Bradford's tweet, but I think, she still has a valid point with what she stated:
http://www.stuff.co....sparks-backlash


It is time to thoroughly REVIEW and to REVERSE at least the harshest, and the scientifically unproved, or insufficiently proved measures that were brought in at WINZ under Paula Bennett and this government!


P.S.: I wish to make clear, that the above is by no means to be understood as somehow "justifying" the actions of the killer! I am though seeing sufficient reason, to also ask questions, and to demand answers as to what led to all this. At the same time I express my condolences to the friends, work colleagues and families of the victims!

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#29 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:15 PM

I totally agree with everything you have written Marc.
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#30 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:48 PM

Marc I doubt very much whether any recent legislation or policy has created the circumstances resulting in these murders. The problem appears to be systemic in as much as very large numbers of people having dealings with government servants feel aggrieved and without access to timely remedies to address their desperate circumstances.

The systemic problems that do exist is the perception that we live in a insulated community that offers social services regardless of circumstance. No doubt the legislation does cover this whereby every individual does have the expectation that they would not be living in a tent, as in the murderers circumstances, yet he was provided with the advice that he was entitled to know more. A charity organisation had offered him free assistance over and above their normal allocation of two days. This is not the case of WINZ staff being insensitive but quite clearly wrong. There will have been something they could have done but did not do with the result that two of their staff paid the price. After all as a matter of law the social welfare services is the last resort in the dire situation where a New Zealand citizen finds himself living in a tent where there is no possibility that he can continue to survive in the Ashburton weather.

Marc saying that you know other people who are in worse circumstances than this fellow is entirely irrelevant. This fellow was gravely ill and did not expect to live. He had come home to die. How are you then able to say that he was not "prepared" to handle the situation. This is what we pay public servants to do and undoubtedly this was his expectation. Somehow the public servants seem to be socially engineering people like yourself to have a different expectation than what the legislation demands upon the social welfare employees. By that I mean what the law demands of rather than their own policies.

It is important that if one finds themselves working for a state owned entity that they asked to disobey the law that they quit their job rather than break the law and claim immunity because they think they are "under orders". That simply is not an excuse. What is worse is that the hierarchy of State servants to place their front-line staff in harm's way by not providing them with adequate training or even misleading advice as to how they are to deal with desperate circumstances. Security is not the answer but rather education and integrity is which will be by far the cheapest way to resolve this very serious and most dangerous circumstance.

When someone is to ill to work then nothing is expected of them and everything is expected of the State servant. Marc how are you able to presume that this fellow had a mental health issue. He was working in a stable yet toxic environment and suffered injuries from that environment which manifests in skin and other ailments causing him to expect that he would not live much longer. He sold his car and had obviously depleted his circumstance as far as was possible resulting in living in a tent. Even if he did have some form of mental health issue surely this would have resulted in even more assistance. It was no fault of his that he suffered from a debilitating injury or illness and as such you cannot be accusing him of losing control of his life.

In order to focus attention on the back story issue to the situation we need to address the fact that we do know. One thing is for sure the court will not be interested in the back story. Once he is caught, it is caught alive, he will be certainly living up the rest of his days in jail as this was obviously a premeditated murder. Putting him in jail does nothing towards making New Zealand is safer place but rather will increase the risk that the government servants is exposed to as there will be many others as desperate as him with the undoubted knee-jerk reaction of the social service throughout the country increasing the level of security which will decrease the level of one-to-one empathetic communication between the servants and those being served with the servants gaining a heightened sense of the authority and importance over those they are meant to be caring for.

Marc you speak of the social welfare system as being hideous yet if we look at the legislation the expectation is clearly evident whereby we are guaranteed the necessities of life. This man was deprived of the necessities of life the moment he found himself living in a tent and obviously the time leading up to that circumstance. If the legislation has been written to the extent that such a person the circumstances is to be cared for and he wasn't therefore the only possible conclusion we can draw is that the state servants at disobey the law. Clearly this man did not find himself readily able to gain access to a judicial remedy whereby he could use legal force to bear down on the state servants involved in will have become overwhelmingly desperate.

We must stand back from today's events and look at the whole situation. When a person finds themselves without the necessities of life to the extent that they are living in a tent or similar such circumstances they either lash out by murder or lash out by suicide. So far the ratio of suicides is vastly in excess of murders. To reduce these deaths we need to look at the cause-and-effect situation. The legislators certainly did. The politicians say that trying to get the state servants to obey the law is rather like herding cats.

Marc while this is an election year and undoubtedly state servants at the higher level will be under pressure to reduce the numbers on benefits with that having a trickle-down effect to the front-line staff members we see the situation with every different government and while this might have been a contributing factor my overall sense is that over the decades state servants are much the same as they have always been.

I feel that the answer lies in a higher level of state servant education in regards to their obedience to legislation which will in turn reduce both murders and suicides. With more diligent and caring staff there will also be a reduction of numbers on benefits by way of providing the necessary resources such as medical treatment through to job training.
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#31 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:31 PM

perhaps we can use this thread to discuss the issues and implications of matters that lead up to a murder together with the ongoing problems and the other thread to address our condolences to those staff who remain
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#32 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:54 PM

Ashburton shooting suspect arrested
Last updated 17:26 01/09/2014

Police have arrested John Henry Tully after two people were killed and another seriously injured when a balaclava-clad man opened fire in Ashburton's Work and Income office today.

A massive manhunt concluded about 5.30pm when Tully was found on a rural property south of the Canterbury town.

We have live coverage below as the story keeps unfolding. Read the full story on the shooting here.

Here's what we know so far:

- Two people were shot dead by a man at a Work and Income office in Ashburton about 10am. One person was shot dead on site and another died at Ashburton Hospital. A third is in a serious but stable condition.

- A gunman entered the office on the corner of Cass and Moore streets, and fired several shots before fleeing on a bike.

- Tully, 48, who also used Russel as a first name, was found and arrested early this evening on a rural property south east of Ashburton.

- Police had 100 staff involved in the hunt for Tully. Residents had been warned to stay indoors and to not approach him.

- Residents were scared and some were afraid to leave their homes. Schools and some public offices were locked down.

- The shooting has shocked Ashburton town.

- Former MP Sue Bradford has been slammed for allegedly using the shooting for political "point scoring".

- New Plymouth's Work and Income office was temporarily closed today after a man allegedly threatened staff over the phone.


- Stuff

http://www.stuff.co....uspect-arrested
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#33 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 08:29 PM

You are a sick man REX!

Two people are dead and one seriously injured and you post that slanderous crap!

Your resident ACCforum troll mates here are even sicker for giving you 2 + reputation points for that as well!

Grow up and get a life kids!
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#34 User is offline   David Butler 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:00 PM

Fran Va Helmond
altho rex maybe was a bit out of line in this thread the FACT is he is correct
MANY THINK OF YOU AS A DANGEROUS PERSON Franny
YEars of you in here has shown you to be as YOU Are a known radical who abusive and nastily attacks acc and winz staff and are getting a more angry person as the years go by
which is why i like you in here so we c>THE FORUM POLICE DEPARTMENT'' can watch you and if you oversteps a certain ''set level '' of benchmark then franny
Im afraid farnny ,ITS OFF TO THE BLACK OPS YOU GO
REAL FAST AT THAT mate






dave
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#35 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:01 PM

View PostBLURB, on 01 September 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

You are a sick man REX!

Two people are dead and one seriously injured and you post that slanderous crap!

Your resident ACCforum troll mates here are even sicker for giving you 2 + reputation points for that as well!

Grow up and get a life kids!


the pot calls the kettle black

Fran do you recall your type of behaviour toward me 2006-2008 until you needed me to help you and then after you have no further use from me your ongoing slander against me. By the way when are you going to pay me for the expenses I have undergone on your behalf?
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#36 User is offline   Alan Thomas 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:05 PM

View PostDavid Butler, on 01 September 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Fran Va Helmond
altho rex maybe was a bit out of line in this thread the FACT is he is correct
MANY THINK OF YOU AS A DANGEROUS PERSON Franny
YEars of you in here has shown you to be as YOU Are a known radical who abusive and nastily attacks acc and winz staff and are getting a more angry person as the years go by
which is why i like you in here so we c>THE FORUM POLICE DEPARTMENT'' can watch you and if you oversteps a certain ''set level '' of benchmark then franny
Im afraid farnny ,ITS OFF TO THE BLACK OPS YOU GO

REAL FAST AT THAT mate






dave


David Butler is this something of a confession that there is ACC Black Ops involvement with members of the site? Is the above meant to read that you can take it upon yourself to frogmarch a member of the site of to the Gulag like and your co-conspirators you did to me?
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#37 User is offline   Marc 

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:02 PM

View PostAlan Thomas, on 01 September 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Marc I doubt very much whether any recent legislation or policy has created the circumstances resulting in these murders. The problem appears to be systemic in as much as very large numbers of people having dealings with government servants feel aggrieved and without access to timely remedies to address their desperate circumstances.

The systemic problems that do exist is the perception that we live in a insulated community that offers social services regardless of circumstance. No doubt the legislation does cover this whereby every individual does have the expectation that they would not be living in a tent, as in the murderers circumstances, yet he was provided with the advice that he was entitled to know more. A charity organisation had offered him free assistance over and above their normal allocation of two days. This is not the case of WINZ staff being insensitive but quite clearly wrong. There will have been something they could have done but did not do with the result that two of their staff paid the price. After all as a matter of law the social welfare services is the last resort in the dire situation where a New Zealand citizen finds himself living in a tent where there is no possibility that he can continue to survive in the Ashburton weather.

Marc saying that you know other people who are in worse circumstances than this fellow is entirely irrelevant. This fellow was gravely ill and did not expect to live. He had come home to die. How are you then able to say that he was not "prepared" to handle the situation. This is what we pay public servants to do and undoubtedly this was his expectation. Somehow the public servants seem to be socially engineering people like yourself to have a different expectation than what the legislation demands upon the social welfare employees. By that I mean what the law demands of rather than their own policies.

It is important that if one finds themselves working for a state owned entity that they asked to disobey the law that they quit their job rather than break the law and claim immunity because they think they are "under orders". That simply is not an excuse. What is worse is that the hierarchy of State servants to place their front-line staff in harm's way by not providing them with adequate training or even misleading advice as to how they are to deal with desperate circumstances. Security is not the answer but rather education and integrity is which will be by far the cheapest way to resolve this very serious and most dangerous circumstance.

When someone is to ill to work then nothing is expected of them and everything is expected of the State servant. Marc how are you able to presume that this fellow had a mental health issue. He was working in a stable yet toxic environment and suffered injuries from that environment which manifests in skin and other ailments causing him to expect that he would not live much longer. He sold his car and had obviously depleted his circumstance as far as was possible resulting in living in a tent. Even if he did have some form of mental health issue surely this would have resulted in even more assistance. It was no fault of his that he suffered from a debilitating injury or illness and as such you cannot be accusing him of losing control of his life.

In order to focus attention on the back story issue to the situation we need to address the fact that we do know. One thing is for sure the court will not be interested in the back story. Once he is caught, it is caught alive, he will be certainly living up the rest of his days in jail as this was obviously a premeditated murder. Putting him in jail does nothing towards making New Zealand is safer place but rather will increase the risk that the government servants is exposed to as there will be many others as desperate as him with the undoubted knee-jerk reaction of the social service throughout the country increasing the level of security which will decrease the level of one-to-one empathetic communication between the servants and those being served with the servants gaining a heightened sense of the authority and importance over those they are meant to be caring for.

Marc you speak of the social welfare system as being hideous yet if we look at the legislation the expectation is clearly evident whereby we are guaranteed the necessities of life. This man was deprived of the necessities of life the moment he found himself living in a tent and obviously the time leading up to that circumstance. If the legislation has been written to the extent that such a person the circumstances is to be cared for and he wasn't therefore the only possible conclusion we can draw is that the state servants at disobey the law. Clearly this man did not find himself readily able to gain access to a judicial remedy whereby he could use legal force to bear down on the state servants involved in will have become overwhelmingly desperate.

We must stand back from today's events and look at the whole situation. When a person finds themselves without the necessities of life to the extent that they are living in a tent or similar such circumstances they either lash out by murder or lash out by suicide. So far the ratio of suicides is vastly in excess of murders. To reduce these deaths we need to look at the cause-and-effect situation. The legislators certainly did. The politicians say that trying to get the state servants to obey the law is rather like herding cats.

Marc while this is an election year and undoubtedly state servants at the higher level will be under pressure to reduce the numbers on benefits with that having a trickle-down effect to the front-line staff members we see the situation with every different government and while this might have been a contributing factor my overall sense is that over the decades state servants are much the same as they have always been.

I feel that the answer lies in a higher level of state servant education in regards to their obedience to legislation which will in turn reduce both murders and suicides. With more diligent and caring staff there will also be a reduction of numbers on benefits by way of providing the necessary resources such as medical treatment through to job training.


Alan -

You write:
"Marc I doubt very much whether any recent legislation or policy has created the circumstances resulting in these murders. The problem appears to be systemic in as much as very large numbers of people having dealings with government servants feel aggrieved and without access to timely remedies to address their desperate circumstances."

While it may be difficult to make particular law changes directly responsible for the conduct of certain people, such law changes do generally at least contribute to how people behave and react in situations. And systems are based on laws passed by our law makers, to operate. So any "systemic" issues can be linked to law as it stands, and also to certain changes made, especially if the changes are tightening up on entitlements, enforce additional criteria and rules, and make life very difficult for the ones affected.

You also commented this:
"What is worse is that the hierarchy of State servants to place their front-line staff in harm's way by not providing them with adequate training or even misleading advice as to how they are to deal with desperate circumstances. Security is not the answer but rather education and integrity is which will be by far the cheapest way to resolve this very serious and most dangerous circumstance."

I agree totally, as I have heard enough, and seen this myself, how the reality of staff dealing with at times very "challenging" clients at WINZ is very different to what the Ministry (MSD) and the Minister (Paula Bennett) claim to be the reality. The training they get is not very thorough, and when they say "our staff get trained to deal with mentally ill", I doubt very much they have the expertise and care a decent, professionally qualified counsellor or psychologist may have. WiNZ operate at a tight budget, so "training" is very brief and rudimentary, at best.

And when you get an "investment approach" with clear targets to get people shifted off benefits into work, the staff are having to do things that may go against their conscience, but they are bound by their contract of employment. Finding another job in clerical positions is not that easy, so many WINZ staff depend on their employment. Most clerical work of the type they do is rare now, as computers have done away with much, same as constant restructuring. And some working at WINZ once sat on the other side of the counter too, having patchy CVs.

Alan challenged me with this: "Marc how are you able to presume that this fellow had a mental health issue."

I can clearly state, looking at the circumstances of what happened, this was not a "rational" or "normal" action that the man in question did. He was clearly in distress, and when people are in distress, they tend to start getting certain "mental" or "psychological" issues, and that is what I presume he suffered from, besides of his physical ill health. Also did a person on the news tonight report, that the man was known to have mental health problems, it was coming from a guy running a motel or motor camp, it seemed, who once offered the homeless man accommodation (for only a few days). There was certain irrational behaviour the man displayed, and that indicates mental and emotional stress. Not all mental health problems mean a person has to be "insane" or severely affected, as depression, anxiety and so can have varying degrees of course. That may be enough to motivate persons doing irrational, extreme things.

As for the welfare system, much stands on paper, much is said and may sound ok or "nice", but there are endless conditions placed on people, before they get anything. And there are also many sanctions, more than ever before. Now and then a number of realities and aspects come together, where people fall through the cracks, and this seems to be one of them.

When I hear people now talk of a "tight knit, caring community" in Ashburton, or other places, I reflect on the rural background I grew up in. People there tend to think they are good, caring and right in their perceptions, but for some persons with challenges, and mental issues, the reality may be very different to what the community thinks and feels. As many complained about him setting up a tent in the domain, that indicates there is a lot of intolerance. So the guy must have finally felt that all are against him, and decided, enough is enough, I take revenge, hence the disaster that happened.

I see a failure of mental health and other services, where warning signals were not registered early and seriously enough, and insufficient actions were taken to avoid worse. The shooter was trespassed from WINZ only days ago! That is what they often do, as a last resort, but what effect does it have on a person already in desperation and driven into the corner? People get angry for reasons, and there lies also a reason for what maybe wrong with the whole system, driving some to the extreme. The stats for assaults (verbal and worse), abuse and so of WINZ and ACC staff speak legends about what goes on. Do we want to blame all the ones the system "blames"? Much mind and soul and heart searching will be needed, but I fear that WiNZ and ACC will simply increase security, and fail to address other issues, they are responsible for.

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#38 User is offline   David Butler 

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 07:37 AM

View PostAlan Thomas, on 01 September 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

David Butler is this something of a confession that there is ACC Black Ops involvement with members of the site? Is the above meant to read that you can take it upon yourself to frogmarch a member of the site of to the Gulag like and your co-conspirators you did to me?


That is the SENSIBLE thing to do Alan.
It does NOT mean an involvement with anyone.
It is you that goes on about presenting threats of danger to the Police if one has information and now you try this tactic of shit stirring
You were not frog marched
YOU WERE INTERVIEWED-Charged with a crime on the evidence that was presented to the ACC Black Op's against you by Kenneth Miller
There was a trial and you were found Guilty of [Planning to blow up the ACC . with a van full of fertilizer-which im sure if it had had gone off according to plan there would have been far more life's lost and harm to others than the recent issues this thread is about.


I would rather read about your trial for planing to Blow Up the ACC as opposed to reading the breaking news that you had Blown up the ACC Building along with the staff and members of the public.
Your reasoning at times on issues as this defy logic Alan
do you want thomas law for you and Police law for others
seems so from your many rhetoric writings.

David.
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#39 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 07:59 AM

Staff fled as gun fired
JOELLE DALLY, BLAIR ENSOR
Last updated 05:00 02/09/2014


Two Work and Income staff made a desperate dash for the back door of their Ashburton office when the shooting started.

Homeless beneficiary Russel John Tully, 48, was yesterday arrested following the shooting of three women at the office, two fatally.

Lindy Curtis was last night in a stable condition in Christchurch Hospital with leg injuries. Peg Noble was on reception when a gunman walked into the office and shot her in the chest. A third woman was also killed.

Noble was 10 minutes from her tea break when she was shot at close range.

Yesterday, friend Elizabeth Rees said Noble was a second mother to her daughter, Kim, who worked in the same office.

Kim was due to relieve Noble on reception and had a narrow escape.

''She's been crying and crying. She came home, saw her kids and it hit her,'' Rees said.

Her daughter and another staff member had run for their lives to the back door of the office and then out to the street, Rees said.

''She [Kim] said as she was running out of the building her body felt 10 times its weight. It felt like running in slow motion.''

Noble had worked for Work and Income for 20 years and was supposed to retire years ago but loved her job.

''She lived for her job,'' Rees said. ''She had a heart of gold and would do anything for you.''

Sheep and cropping farmer Dan White, 33, was in his ute on his way to move a mob of sheep when he saw a man walking toward him through a paddock about 100 metres away about 2.45pm.

''I just carried on as if I didn't know what was going on, called the police straight away and was talking to them as I drove off down the road.''

White's wife and three children were not home at the time. Police cordoned the area and arrested a man, Tully, about 5.30pm.

''I'm still s......g bricks,'' he said.

White said that he was ''relieved'' to hear an arrest had been made.

''It makes you feel pretty sick,'' he said of the shootings in Ashburton yesterday morning.

''I think they [the police] have done a good job but they were in the dark for most of it though.''

Police had thanked him for contacting them.

TOWN STUNNED AFTER SHOOTINGS

A massive manhunt ended in Ashburton yesterday after police arrested the homeless beneficiary.

About 100 police, including special tactics group and armed offenders squad staff, spent eight hours hunting Tully, finding him on a rural property in Terrace Rd, 15 kilometres south of Ashburton, near Lake Hood about 6pm.

Police refused to talk about the arrest but said Tully was taken for a medical examination and treatment for dog bites.

They continued looking for a firearm last night.

Two Work and Income staff were fatally shot about 10am yesterday by a man wearing a black balaclava and a green army jacket. A third person was flown to Christchurch Hospital and is in a stable condition.

One of the victims was a case manager who was often on the front desk. At the time of the shooting, the office had six staff and some clients present.

The shooter ran from the office and made off on a pushbike, leaving his helmet in the street and going east along Moore St towards the Ashburton River.

FRONTLINE STAFF FACE CLIENTS' WRATH

The fatal shooting was the first time public servants had been killed at work since the murder of ACC worker Janet Pike in Auckland 15 years ago.

However, staff at government agencies have faced several threats and attacks since.

March 2013: EQC staff at a Christchurch office were sent home after an angry homeowner made threats. Security guards were brought in and the North New Brighton hub was closed for the rest of the day.

December 2012: Southland man Sean Muir threatened to fill his car with urea bombs and diesel and drive it into the Invercargill ACC offices.

February 2012: A social worker was punched at a Palmerston North Child, Youth and Family (CYF) office during a custody meeting.

November 2011: At the temporary CYF's offices in Papanui, Thamir Abdulridha El Mehdi smashed a glass door and window, and pushed a woman causing her to fall and shook another violently, gripping her neck before throwing her into the furniture.

July 2011: North Shore beneficiary Alan Thomas was sentenced to 10 months of home detention after planning to explode a van full explosives and nails outside an ACC branch office.

October 2006: A New Brighton Work and Income security officer was punched unconscious by client Ivan Grey. Grey was discussing payment when he became agitated and punched the security officer when he was approached.

February 2005: A Work and Income receptionist was stabbed by a 32-year-old Hamilton woman.

January 2001: A client drove a car through the front window of the Work and Income Flaxmere office, near Hastings, extensively damaging the building and sending staff scurrying for safety.

November 1999: A man wielding a wooden club at the Orewa Work and Income office smashed six windows, a computer and a sign. No staff were hurt.

June 1999: ACC worker Janet Pike, 34, was stabbed to death at the Henderson office in West Auckland by Johnny Manu, who was receiving treatment for schizophrenia. He visited the office claiming he was owed $350.

The following day, a chair was thrown through a glass window at the Greymouth ACC office.

- The Press

http://www.stuff.co....ed-as-gun-fired
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#40 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:16 AM

Homeless suspect sought MPs' help
MYLES HUME, HELENA O'NEILL AND ANNA WILLIAMS
Last updated 05:00 02/09/2014

Russel John Tully has a chequered history including homelessness, illness, a broken marriage, an interest in hunting and firearms, and an obsession with an exotic philosophy.

Tully was worried about his lack of housing and in recent weeks he resorted to camping in a tent by the Ashburton River and had also been living under the bridge at times, locals say.

He fell out with a flatmate shortly after moving back to Ashburton.

He was born in Ashburton in 1966 to a nurse and a farmhand.

He recently spoke of his frustration about the lack of accommodation in Ashburton and took his case to political figures including Rangitata MP Jo Goodhew and NZ First MP Winston Peters as well as Ashburton Mayor Angus McKay.

He found temporary accommodation through Presbyterian Support but that lasted only four nights. Presbyterian Support Ashburton manager Jackie Girvan said Tully appeared desperate and frustrated.

Girvan said social and private housing options in the town were limited.

Tully believed Work and Income and other government agencies wanted him to leave Ashburton and move to Timaru or Christchurch.

Suffering a skin condition and a lower back injury, Tully was on a disability benefit and said his doctor recommended he stay somewhere warm and dry.

Last month, Tully pitched his tent in the Ashburton Domain "as a protest" but he was soon moved on after complaints.

He then lived in his car until he sold it for cash and moved to the riverbed.

He said he was frustrated a Housing New Zealand property in Ashburton was unoccupied when he was homeless.

He had approached the property's neighbours and was told no-one had lived there for 14 months, but Housing NZ reportedly claimed it was tenanted.

NZ First leader Winston Peters said he was contacted by Tully on August 14 by email but replies kept bouncing back.

He said Tully wrote about the difficulty of getting a house to live in and Rangitata MP Jo Goodhew had not helped him.

An email shows he also wrote to the offices of the Speaker, and Cabinet ministers Gerry Brownlee and Paula Bennett, among others.

Family in Christchurch refused to speak to The Press.

Former Picton man Chris Brooks, who lives on the West Coast, went to school with Tully's ex-wife. He met Tully about 10 years ago when they both lived in Marlborough. When Tully and his wife separated, Tully asked Brooks if he could stay at his house while he sorted himself out.

It was after he read the book The Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield that he started to go downhill, Brooks said.

The book discusses various psychological and spiritual ideas that are rooted in many ancient Eastern traditions.

"He got into that book.

"He started preaching about the prophecy and how we were all living our lives wrong."

Brooks asked him to leave after about three months because it was not working out, he said.

He had not seen Tully in more than four years.

- The Press

http://www.stuff.co....sought-MPs-help
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