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Dr Otto Finally found a forum here, Too Late!

#1 User is offline   Trying 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 10:14 PM

Hi Guys
Finally found a forum that mentions this guy, too late!
We went and saw him beginning of this year. Had no idea why, only that ACC wanted a review/update on my hubbys progress.
We spent most of last year fighting ACC for wrongful removal from ACC. We went to Dr Noonan, and yes he said hubby was able to do jobs that he had never done in his life. We went to Dispute Resolution, the decision was overturned in September. The Case Manager was "sympathetic" (Yeah right) but wanted us to see Dr Otto before Christmas for an assessment, so "they could work out" when hubby would get his operation he needed. We went and saw this old b$#@#$ who kept losing train of thought, and talking about medical minerals and a whole heap of irrelevant stuff.
To finally get a report back to say that hubby had a problem with his back and he had degenerative arthiritis nothing what-so-ever to do with his accident!
Now we are again fighting them this year, but we are having problems finding anyone to refute this report from Dr Otto. All claiming a conflict of interests with ACC.
Do we find someone to refute the report, or just find someone to prove Ott incompetent?
Thoughts please?
Thanks
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#2 User is offline   Compassion 

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 11:26 PM

Hi, sorry for your predicament. Perhaps you could seek treatment for the new diagnosis, and if this is incorrect, maybe the specialist will write back to your gp saying this isn't the right treatment, and it is the injury.Take that to review you have 3 months to file.

If you send previous reports to Dr Otta as a statement of corection to ask him/her how this diagnosis has changed and what evidence did they find to support this. Also maybe supply proof of how it affected you after the injury and ask why it didn't effect hubby before this date.

You never know maybe Dr Otta didn't have scans sent to him/her or all your reports from respected drs of the relevant field.

Maybe go from angle of a second opinion, rather than an attack on Dr Otta and a specialist could be more comfortable with this??

A specialist told me that they don't rely on scans and many times the damage is not where the pain is, or is the same amount of damage on both sides (on scan) but only causing symptoms on the one. IE one shoulder works fine the other wont work at all. They said they should look at symtoms rather than cause as is very hard to show. I guess the symptoms your hubby had weren't there before the injury!
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#3 User is offline   Gloria Mitchell 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:15 AM

Hi there, You won't get a lot of help finding someone to refute another drs report.....thats not the way to do it.

You ask your gp for a referral to a Specialist who outranks Otto for an uptodate report on your husbands post injury status.

Gloria
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#4 User is offline   Mark 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:38 AM

Quote

In October, however, she was advised that Dunedin specialist Bruce Hodgson's application for the surgery had not been approved because ACC considered the accident unmasked an existing degenerative condition.

That view was put forward by Auckland orthopaedic surgeon Brian Otto. He also considered Mrs Tait's pregnancy might have helped accelerate the changes.

ACC asked to review Mrs Tait's clinical records and radiological information, including her 2008 and 2010 MRI scans.

In her decision on the review of ACC's October decision, reviewer Christine Hickey said that in weighing up competing medical evidence, she was entitled to give more weight to doctors who had actually examined Mrs Tait and who were not permanent employees of ACC.

Therefore, she preferred to place greater weight on the opinions of Invercargill orthopaedic surgeon Murray Fosbender and Mr Hodgson.

Otago woman wins ACC battle
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#5 User is offline   Trying 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:20 AM

View PostGloria Mitchell, on 27 June 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

Hi there, You won't get a lot of help finding someone to refute another drs report.....thats not the way to do it.

You ask your gp for a referral to a Specialist who outranks Otto for an uptodate report on your husbands post injury status.

Gloria

Hi Gloria

Thanks for that, how do I go about finding out who "outranks" this guy?
Sorry this is not a field that I know a lot about other than hubbys interactions with the various specialists.
Is there a registrar of these particular specialists? ( like GPs do)
Thank you
Donna
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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:28 AM

View PostCompassion, on 26 June 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

Hi, sorry for your predicament. Perhaps you could seek treatment for the new diagnosis, and if this is incorrect, maybe the specialist will write back to your gp saying this isn't the right treatment, and it is the injury.Take that to review you have 3 months to file.

If you send previous reports to Dr Otta as a statement of corection to ask him/her how this diagnosis has changed and what evidence did they find to support this. Also maybe supply proof of how it affected you after the injury and ask why it didn't effect hubby before this date.

You never know maybe Dr Otta didn't have scans sent to him/her or all your reports from respected drs of the relevant field.

Maybe go from angle of a second opinion, rather than an attack on Dr Otta and a specialist could be more comfortable with this??

A specialist told me that they don't rely on scans and many times the damage is not where the pain is, or is the same amount of damage on both sides (on scan) but only causing symptoms on the one. IE one shoulder works fine the other wont work at all. They said they should look at symtoms rather than cause as is very hard to show. I guess the symptoms your hubby had weren't there before the injury!

Hi
We went to another specialist the last time ACC kicked us off entitlements, someone who reassessed Noonans report. This did work, we did do the 3 months review with the Dispute Tribunal, the decision was overturned last year, but ACC went right back into trying to kick hubby off using another method, hence the Dr Otto. It took 3 seperate correspondent letters to Dr Otto from ACC Case Manager, before he finally said degenerative. ( we haven't got the letters she sent him though - they are "missing")
These symptoms are all post injury. We have had specialists recommend treatment and operation to "fix " this problem, however ACC has chosen not to take this course of action by getting other specialists to refute the need for the treatment. We were told by our original case manager (before she "no longer works for ACC") that the reason behind this was the costs of the operation.
And so we keep battling.
Any and all help much appreciated. We go back to the review board in August.

Thanks
Donna
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#7 User is offline   Fighter for Justice 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:54 AM

What type of specialist do you need to see to write a report that outranks etc the reports you have?

I got a specialist report done by Dr Wigley (Rheumatologist, Palmerston North) to counter Dr Turner's Report.

I would see a lawyer who regularly does ACC work - they should be able to recommend someone...

Possibilities include:
Phil Schmidt - Auckland, John Miller Law - Wellington, Martin Bell (Corcoran French) Christchurch, Peter Sara - Dunedin

These are all law firms/lawyers who regularly do ACC work.
Even if all you got was lawyer's recommendation on which Dr to see for a report, and they could if necessary write referral letter to that Dr. (This is not always necessary - but sometimes helpful - depending on Dr ).

Hope this helps, Fighter for Justice
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#8 User is offline   Mark 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 08:19 AM

The sad reality is for a claimant is having to become well versed in law.

Recently is has been noted that some Judges do not favour Dr Otto.

Quote

Dr Brian Otto is derided for failing to read the MRI scans himself.

Dr Brian Otto is now on record stating that the only way degeneration can be properly established is by discography.

Judge Beattie has agreed that without discography Mr Otto was merely giving his opinion. Counsel submitted that in those circumstances the true factual basis, necessary to satisfy the legal requirements for suspension of entitlements, had not been made.

See Lu-v-Accident-Compensation-Corporation-2011-NZACC-45 From the story ACC slow to cough up after ruling April 2011.

As for ACC's claim that three letters to Dr Otto are missing what complete bullshit. all correspondence relating to a claim is entered/tracked by the EOS system.
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#9 User is offline   Lupine 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 01:21 PM

View PostTrying, on 26 June 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

Hi Guys
Finally found a forum that mentions this guy, too late!
We went and saw him beginning of this year. Had no idea why, only that ACC wanted a review/update on my hubbys progress.
We spent most of last year fighting ACC for wrongful removal from ACC. We went to Dr Noonan, and yes he said hubby was able to do jobs that he had never done in his life. We went to Dispute Resolution, the decision was overturned in September. The Case Manager was "sympathetic" (Yeah right) but wanted us to see Dr Otto before Christmas for an assessment, so "they could work out" when hubby would get his operation he needed. We went and saw this old b$#@#$ who kept losing train of thought, and talking about medical minerals and a whole heap of irrelevant stuff.
To finally get a report back to say that hubby had a problem with his back and he had degenerative arthiritis nothing what-so-ever to do with his accident!
Now we are again fighting them this year, but we are having problems finding anyone to refute this report from Dr Otto. All claiming a conflict of interests with ACC.
Do we find someone to refute the report, or just find someone to prove Ott incompetent?
Thoughts please?
Thanks


Ah the infamous Dr Otto. He is the gift that keeps on giving as far as ACC is concerned. You wont find anyone to say he is incompetent. Even if you did the Reviewers and Courts would probably see such a report as "advocacy" which will impact on the weight of such a report. There are a few options you can take.

1) Go back to your GP and get the the GP to refer you to another specialist. The referral needs to be focused on a Clinical Process and not the ACC process.
2) Get the GP to refer back to an original treating specialist who deemed your husbands situation as the result of an accident. Again the referral should be based on a Clinical Process.

If Otto did not have any MRI scans or XRAYS or was not in full possession of all available medical reports (somehow ACC often fails to provide reports that favor the claimant) then his report loses credibility.

ACC will have those letters as sure as eggs are eggs. Quote Principle 6 of the Privacy Act when seeking to obtain them. You can also obtain them from Otto himself under the same legislation. If either or both fail to provide them then they are in breach of the Privacy Act and open themselves up to legal action. The law requires that the information they hold is retained. Privacy Act again.
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#10 User is offline   Brionia 

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:33 PM

View PostTrying, on 27 June 2011 - 07:28 AM, said:

Hi
We went to another specialist the last time ACC kicked us off entitlements, someone who reassessed Noonans report. This did work, we did do the 3 months review with the Dispute Tribunal, the decision was overturned last year, but ACC went right back into trying to kick hubby off using another method, hence the Dr Otto. It took 3 seperate correspondent letters to Dr Otto from ACC Case Manager, before he finally said degenerative. ( we haven't got the letters she sent him though - they are "missing")
These symptoms are all post injury. We have had specialists recommend treatment and operation to "fix " this problem, however ACC has chosen not to take this course of action by getting other specialists to refute the need for the treatment. We were told by our original case manager (before she "no longer works for ACC") that the reason behind this was the costs of the operation.
And so we keep battling.
Any and all help much appreciated. We go back to the review board in August.

Thanks
Donna

Donna, write to Otto and request all correspondence to/from ACC as per your rights under Privacy Act. Also get his clinical notes from assessment. Ask ACC again for information using Privacy Act, and explain they might need to do an IT sweep, as all information is definitely backed up. Meanwhile lodge complaint to Privacy commissioner that ACC is withholding information. ACC has all electronic information backed up. It does exists they just aren't giving it to you.
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#11 User is offline   scared 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:29 PM

Otto requested a new MRI for my hubby - then wrote the reportbefore he even saw that MRI, he even mentions in his report that he did not see the MRI. Noonan was really Pissed off when he found out Otto had requested a new MRI and said it was a complete waste of time. tick tock a month or two goes by and reports come out, hubby cut off and the toads win.
Sounds familiar Trying.......
Our story in a nutshell .... no ACC since last December.
Upskill yourself - you may be the sole earner now :-(
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#12 User is offline   Shapeshifters 

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:19 AM

View PostFighter for Justice, on 27 June 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

What type of specialist do you need to see to write a report that outranks etc the reports you have?

I got a specialist report done by Dr Wigley (Rheumatologist, Palmerston North) to counter Dr Turner's Report.

I would see a lawyer who regularly does ACC work - they should be able to recommend someone...

Possibilities include:
Phil Schmidt - Auckland, John Miller Law - Wellington, Martin Bell (Corcoran French) Christchurch, Peter Sara - Dunedin

These are all law firms/lawyers who regularly do ACC work.
Even if all you got was lawyer's recommendation on which Dr to see for a report, and they could if necessary write referral letter to that Dr. (This is not always necessary - but sometimes helpful - depending on Dr ).

Hope this helps, Fighter for Justice



Hi,does anyone have Dr Wrigley's current contact details please

Cheers ss
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#13 User is offline   Sparrow 

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

i HAD HEARD THAT DR WRIGLEY HAS RETIRED???
He must be late 70's ??
good luck

Dr Black from Akld is good and I can supply details off line to you


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#14 User is offline   Bazil Fawlty 

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

No, he hasn't retired (although he was considering retiring last year), he is still registered with the MCNZ & as far as I am aware is still available for specialist reports.

His name is Dr Wigley, not Wrigley so that maybe why you haven't been able to find his contact details.

Wigley Dr R
Contact: 0-6-357 8429
240 Park Rd Palmerston North 4410
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#15 User is offline   Sparrow 

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

Thanks for that Basil. I made a typo!
I heard he will only take on a case where the person has been cut off but then that may not be so in every case!
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#16 User is offline   BLURB 

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostSparrow, on 16 December 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

i HAD HEARD THAT DR WRIGLEY HAS RETIRED???
He must be late 70's ??
good luck

Dr Black from Akld is good and I can supply details off line to you



Dr Black - North Shore Auckland

Black Dr David
Occupational & Enviromental Medicine Specialist
09-950 3208

Another dr otto thread that may be of interest to visitors

http://accforum.org/...c/8807-dr-otto/

And who not to go see

http://accforum.org/...ine-specialist/
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#17 User is offline   not their victim 

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:23 PM


Mother wins 3 year fight with ACC
By Natalie Akoorie

5:30 AM Thursday Sep 12, 2013Woman who suffered neck injury in car crash told pain was caused by degenerative condition

Posted ImageMadeleine Flannagan has had her ACC entitlements restored. Photo / Greg BowkerA lawyer has won a three-year battle against ACC, which claimed pain she suffered after a car crash was from degeneration and not a neck injury.

When Madeleine Flannagan appealed against the decision to cut her entitlements - and before the case could be heard in the District Court - ACC accepted her injury was caused by the accident and offered the Orewa woman a settlement.

It follows hundreds of cases in the past five years where claimants have been turned down for cover or had their compensation cancelled because of "pre-existing" or "degenerative" conditions.

Have you had a similar experience with ACC? Email us here.



Mrs Flannagan suffered a herniated disc in her neck after being rear-ended by a car in March 2008.

An Auckland legal assistant at the time, she had an operation, but her surgeon said it would take her up to four years to fully recover.

A previously fit and active mother of four, she was forced to quit her job - the main household income - because of the pain.

In May 2010, ACC stopped cover after a diagnosis by ACC-appointed specialist Brian Otto, who said the continuing pain was caused by degeneration.

At the appointment, Mrs Flannagan, accompanied by her husband, was stunned by Mr Otto's opening remark. "As he shut the door and walked around his desk to his chair, he announced, 'We are here today to discuss your degenerative condition'," she wrote in an affidavit to the court.

In the affidavit the 40-year-old said Mr Otto admitted he had not seen her x-rays and MRI scan, which made her believe he had "conducted the appointment with a predetermined purpose: to determine a degenerative condition". Shortly after the appointment he diagnosed a "pre-existing degenerative condition" as causing the pain and ACC stopped cover.

After the Dispute Resolution Services sided with Mr Otto's diagnosis, the family were left renting a run-down, leaking house and buying lower-quality food to save money.

"We went through hell," Mrs Flannagan told the Herald. "We lived so frugally it wasn't funny."

Her income was reduced to $18,000 on an invalid's benefit but she used an inheritance to buy a small house and finish her law degree.

Two new specialist reports, which she used in her District Court appeal, said the herniated disc was caused by the car crash. But before the case could be heard, ACC offered to pay the entitlements and backdate them.

"It makes me sick wondering how many other people like me are out there who did not deserve to have their cover taken away and who if they just had the money, energy and tenacity to fight would get it back."

Mr Otto argued he looked at every patient's x-rays and scans before making a diagnosis. The retired specialist told the Herald he had "absolutely no recollection" of Mrs Flannagan's case but believed she would not have realised he could receive x-rays via email and that he would have seen them before diagnosing her.

An ACC spokesman said it found the consistency and rationale of the two specialists' opinions "more compelling" than Mr Otto's report. "As a result ACC decided to reverse its decision."

Tell us your story: email newsdesk@nzherald.co.nz

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11123293




Read more by Natalie Akoorie


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#18 User is offline   not their victim 

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:26 PM

the opinion of these idiots../.some of whom are neither qualified, or are just "bought and paid for "

who have never seen physical evidence...

is just that

OPINION....


they cannot change your treatment, cannot write prescriptions, and do not have the hard physical evidence...

therefore, their opinion has no legal bearing on your injury and acc is breaking constitutional law

class action material!
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#19 User is offline   not their victim 

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:32 PM

just found this as well.....



Crash victim in 12-year battle for ACC compo
By Natalie Akoorie

5:30 AM Monday Sep 16, 2013Injured man still waiting for backdated payout after winning at disputes hearing.

Posted ImagePaul Smith broke three vertebrae in his back in a car accident. Photo / Dean PurcellA man who broke his back in three places in a car accident had to battle ACC three times over 12 years to get compensation and he's still waiting.

His case is one of dozens reported to the Herald following an article about a woman's three-year fight against ACC after it cut entitlements, claiming her injury was the result of a pre-existing condition.

Tell us your story. Email the newsdesk.



Paul Smith broke three vertebrae in his back when he was rear-ended at high speed on Auckland's Southern Motorway in February 1998.

But the then 28-year-old was diagnosed with whiplash injury and fibromyalgia chronic pain.

He tried to continue working as an IT consultant but was eventually asked to leave.

In 2001 ACC asked Mr Smith to see specialist Brian Otto. "I drove the approximately 67km from my home in Glenfield only to be told Mr Otto had reviewed my case without me present and I could go home."

Mr Smith was diagnosed with pain syndrome caused by a degenerative spine condition, and ACC stopped entitlements. He had to sell his house, give away his dog, had his car repossessed, moved in with his mother and went on an invalid's benefit.

He went to the Disputes Resolution Service in mid-2001 which upheld ACC's decision, but he did not give up, seeking an MRI scan through the public health system in 2005.

It showed two of the three broken vertebrae with a protruding disc pressing on the left sciatic nerve. Surgery was recommended to fuse the lower spine but ACC refused to pay.

Mr Smith hired a lawyer and in 2010 the case was to be heard in the District Court, when ACC offered a settlement including weekly compensation, backdating the entitlements to 2005 and covering the surgery.

After ACC again cut Mr Smith's entitlements in February 2012 he went back to the Disputes Resolution Service in March this year and won, though he still hasn't received the backdated compensation.

ACC said Mr Smith's initial treatment was focused on injuries consistent with whiplash. "It was only some time later when Mr Smith's neck and arm injuries became less of an issue that his back pain issues emerged," a spokesman said.

He said ACC acknowledged there had been unacceptable delays in making his back payments and it apologised to Mr Smith after the Herald made inquiries.

Labour spokeswoman for ACC, Sue Moroney, said she had fielded many concerns about ACC-appointed specialists. "It is a cause for concern that there's not a lot of transparency around it."

The Minister for ACC, Judith Collins, said she expected the corporation to take the medical opinions it received seriously.

"ACC must ensure entitlements are delivered transparently and fairly to those who need them. It therefore relies in good faith on the integrity and expertise of medical assessors and their reports," she said.

"This is why they do the right thing and offer settlement when they receive other medical reports on the claim with more compelling rationale and consistency than the original reports."

Tell us your story

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11125163





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#20 User is offline   Sparrow 

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

Judith, STOP TELLING LIES~
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